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99designs: Hacks and Cheapskates unite!

Posted On December 24th, 2009 Author Kyle Racki Filed Under Business Development, Branding & Web Design,

So recently, a rather bold individual walked into our offices and proclaimed how 99designs has made our jobs obsolete, and now any company can get top-quality designs at bargain basement pricing. How true is his claim?

For those who don’t know, 99designs works this way:

  • You the client have a project. You upload your brief and your budget to 99designs (your budget may not even be enough to rent a motel room for a night)
  • Thousands of designers can compete, uploading designs for you to review
  • You choose from a bunch of entries, maybe even hundreds, possibly thousands, and provide feedback
  • You pick whichever one you like best, and pay the designer

Sounds great doesn’t it? Finally, a way to avoid shelling out thousands of dollars to a designer or firm, and a way to get exactly what you want.

Why it’s bad for designers

For ethical and sustainability reasons, spec work is bad for the design industry. Designers do not sell products, they sell their time creating products. In other words, the service of designing. This is similar to how lawyers do not sell successfully won cases, they sell their time preparing and consulting with their client with the hopes of winning said case.

To ask a designer, who would normally charge money by the hour or by the project, to give away free design work “competing” to win a project is like asking a carpenter to build you a chair with the hopes of getting paid if you like it. Would you pull 8 hours of shift work with the hopes that you would get paid if your employer is pleased with your performance?

99designs is bad for the design industry as a whole because it cheapens the profession, literally and figuratively. It perpetrates the notion that graphic design (web design etc.) is easy, and all you need is the right software and a ‘good eye’ to be able to do it effectively. The fact of the matter is, good design is not easy. More than just making nice-looking graphics, it requires problem solving ability, strategic thinking, knowledge of business, communication skills, knowledge of art history and popular culture to name a few skills. Good designers require years of training and work-experience to hone their craft and be able to deliver strong, effective design.

Therefore, to poison a clients’ mind with the idea that it is simply a matter of splashing digital paint on a computer screen and letting them decide which option they want to pay for destroys the credibility and profitability of our profession. By the way, did I mention that the budgets on 99designs are horrendously low? If a professional designer were to actually take the proper amount of time to work on any given project, at these prices, they would make more money flipping burgers.

You may ask why so many designers even bother if there is no money in it. I will explain that next.

Why it’s bad for clients

One might say that it is the designers’ choice whether or not he wants to take part in a design competition website like 99designs, and so you can hardly fault the clients for wanting cheap work if there is a professional designer out there willing to give it away.

Let me explain this with a question; What would your initial feeling be if you were to walk in a pawn shop and see what appears to be a high-quality item priced for less than 1% of what it would cost in a store? If you said you would think it’s stolen or counterfeit, then my point has been made.

So who are these people out there giving away their services for free in the hopes of getting paid, and how can they afford to feed themselves canned chick peas, let alone enjoy a comfortable living? I would put them in the following categories, and keep in mind, the term ‘designer’ is used loosely:

1) The Kid

A whiz with Photoshop and Corel Draw, this mid-pubescent designer works in the safe comfort of his parents basement and uses the competitions as a way to kill time between rounds of Unreal Tournament, and hone his understanding of lens flare effects. He’s using the 99designs projects in his portfolio to apply for design college where he will actually learn about graphic design. Is this who you want designing your corporate identity?

2) The Mass Producer

This designer believes it’s all a numbers game. She has built up such a massive library of design templates over the years, that to submit for a competition is like pulling out 2 year old Halloween candy from a barrel and dumping a handful into a new treat bag. There is no strategy, uniqueness or customized problem solving here. Just stock icons, textures and illustrations with “YOUR NAME HERE” replaced with… your actual company name. So much for “the best possible design to meet your needs”, as stated on the 99designs website.

3) The Hack

This designer just plain sucks. Having a slight understanding of design software but no understanding of design, this guy makes countless amateur mistakes like squished-type or vertically stacked words, and overused 3-D effects like drop shadows, reflections and lens flare. To him, typography is a study of maps, kerning has something to do with corn on the cob, and Paul Rand makes a brand of guitars or something. This designer needs 99designs because frankly, he couldn’t get a job designing popsicle-stand signs for the neighborhood kids even if he was paid in frozen Kool-aid. The children would just point and mock.

4) The Thief

This designer knows what good design is, but just doesn’t have the skill or patience to actually do it himself. So he finds good examples of design and rips it off. From awards galleries to Wordpress Themes, no lovely design is safe from his money-grubbing hands. What you think is an amazing design for your company brand is actually already in use by someone else, maybe even your competitor. You may not find out right away, but your customers sure will. You’ve just paid for counterfeit goods.

Okay, while I’ve clearly had too much fun writing these description, I think the point should be clearly evident; Just because in your opinion, the designs look professional on 99designs, it does not mean it is. Anyone who told you that 99designs is the same as hiring a design company or professional freelancer is simply wrong.

Professionals take time to understand your business problem. They research, they brainstorm, they get inspired, they concept and sketch before they even open Photoshop. Their finished work is not just attractive - it is original, it’s customized for you, and it strategically communicates your message to your target audience in a way that will make them remember you and buy from you. They may actually create work that you do not personally like, but unbeknown to you is precisely on target and will be effective. In fact, a professional designer could, and should challenge your perception of what good is.

Closing arguments

In many ways, I don’t envy clients. When shopping for design, they are being asked to spend money before they’ve seen a finished piece. They are buying in faith that the finished product will be good. Sure 99designs is tempting because it gives you multiple design options quickly and cheaply. Don’t be fooled. You’re better off going to a local design school (community or private college) and at least giving the students some experience. The results will probably even be better.

Especially if you are a company with a proper amount of marketing money, don’t be cheap. Hire a reputable designer or firm who will work with you. Pay them for their work. Remember that most successful companies—from Fortune 500’s to locally-owned private companies—have used good design to get to where they are. Rest assured, they did not use 99designs.

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  • on December 28th, 2009, Julian Gibbs said...


    I think you left the most dangerous designer out of the mix.  The person who has a full time job and designs sites on the side.  These are the people who are actually good at what they do but don’t need the money for groceries.  They can charge what they like because the money is only going towards a new Wii game or some other thing they want rather than need.

  • on December 28th, 2009, Kyle Racki said...

    Good point Julian, in that case, I would say while it’s not right, the client should capitalize on it.

    Thankfully, most designers who work full time still don’t like spending their leisure time working and not getting paid. I would hope if they have any sense they would just freelance for cheap so they can afford Wii games. smile

  • on January 06th, 2010, brian said...

    I disagree, Kyle, I’m a fulltime designer in a sea of graphic designers. Most of them are terrible, nevertheless demand goes down as supply goes up.  I make half as much as my father did (my dad is a graphic designer) 15 years ago.  I tried 99designs to see if I could actually get paid (which I did not for the 2 designs i allegedly won) and to make a little extra money.  My work was superior and ended up being copied and butchered by other half-ass (mostly foreign) designers.  By the end of the competitions there was my design and then a bunch of various terrible knock-offs of mine. The point is, if you aren’t good then don’t do this profession. You don’t see doctors tell better doctors “stop being so good at what you do, none of the patients come to me!”.  If a designer designs something for some extra cash to get a Wii game and he’s better than you, then find another profession.  it’s a scam, they receive money for the post and that’s all they care about.

  • on January 09th, 2010, Kyle Racki said...

    Hey Brian,

    It sounds like we may not disagree so much after all since you say a lot of designers copied your work.

    If you are a good designer, than surely you can get a) a job designing at a local agency or b) freelance work. Not saying you have to be the highest price, all I want is for all good/decent designers to get paid for their work.

    The idea of designer submitting free work with the hopes of getting paid is totally backwards. Know what I mean?

  • on January 11th, 2010, Ricky The Ferris said...

    The one point that I 100% agree with in the post is that if you are looking to cut corners in your design needs go to the colleges. There are lots of ambitious designers graduating from schools that are looking for a project just like that to get started, gain experience and to get a feel for the freelance structure. I had the opportunity to do a couple cheapie jobs out of school and the experience was extremely helpful in landing me a full time job.

  • on January 11th, 2010, Nicole Foster said...

    This is a great article and I completely agree with every point.

    The reason why certain freelancers charge so much money is because we are worth it. Our designs are high quality and we will give you a beautiful website to represent your company. Hiring a freelancer that charges very low may not produce a quality website.

    I do have to disagree with Julian as well. I am full time freelancer and I’m 17. While I admit I have used money I have earned from freelancing for some video games, I mostly put my money into a savings account for college and a new laptop eventually.

    My main concern is how similar sites are going to ruin what we do. If clients cannot realize most of the time they are not receiving quality work, then we could possibly be out of jobs.

  • on January 13th, 2010, Kyle Racki said...

    True Nichole,

    I think Julian’s point was that it can be hard to compete with freelancers who don’t NEED the work.

    The bottom line for me is that people should be paid for their work. I have no problem with less experienced designers charging less for quality work, but so-called contests are just wrong for all involved.

  • on January 14th, 2010, Simon Cox said...

    From a client’s perspective I can see the attraction of spending a few hundred dollars on 99Designs to see what comes back and then taking things from there. A client buying a design teams services is a taking a big risk – yes they have seen the portfolio and the team have a good style and appear to understand the clients (they have to assume) but that’s no guarantee that the client will like the design and reiterations will cost them money to sort out. Reduction of these risks is paramount for any business. Kids designs will not win, Mass producer will get found by looking at their other entries, Hack if nothing better is being entered then the client will fall for bad design but they will like it, Thief – that happens even with top agencies where a designer may well be influenced by latest trends, or an agency has hired someone not knowing their portfolio is ripoffs. For small business the cost options on this will seem very attractive.

  • on January 19th, 2010, Kyle Racki said...

    Hi Simon,

    Yes, the cost is low, I definitely agree with you there. However, to me it doesn’t justify wasting even a little money on.

    At the end of the day, 99designs is good for companies starting out who have little cash, but when you get to a certain point, it’s time to use professionals.

    Yes, not every professional design agency is great either, but that doesn’t justify ceasing to use professionals at all does it?

  • on March 05th, 2010, Vlad said...

    Hi Kyle
    I have a PhD in Informatics and have been working as a web developer/designer for almost 7 years now. I live in Eastern Europe and earn around 1000$ a month as a professional designer (sounds funny to you, but that’s great in my country). I also freelance for clients from USA and sometimes submit my work on 99designs. My question is - in what category do i fit in?

    I’m very passionate about my work, in love with typography and believe that i’m a quality designer. Why do you think that you are better than designers that submit their work on 99?

    And one more thing. Please remove “valid XHTML” from your footer because you have 17 errors. Don’t lie to your visitors.

    Looking forward to reading your response.

  • on March 05th, 2010, Kyle Racki said...


    Sorry to make you defensive, but let me ask you this; If you are a good designer who earns good money from your freelance career, then why give away work on 99designs?

    Do you enjoy doing work for free? Even if your work gets chosen, do you really believe it’s the best design work you could have done, or would it have been better to have a paying client who trusted you and worked through the collaborative process of design with you?

    I don’t believe every one who submits work to 99designs is a bad designer. I’m sure if I submitted work to the site it would not be my best either and I’d probably lose most of the “competitions.” It’s a flawed system that is bad for both parties, designer and client. That was my point, so I’m sorry if I offended you.

  • on March 06th, 2010, Vlad said...

    I don’t “give away” my work on 99. If i win at least one contest a month i double my income for that month (web design contests are around 700$-1500$).

    I actually like making web pages and consider every job a challenge, so that’s also why i submit my work there.

    There is a lot of self-proclaimed designers out there, and 99 is no exception. Look at this “design” ( http://99designs.com/designs/3580305-original ). The guy actually took zbrush logo, wrote the clients name and applied some bevel&emboss; on the font. This kind of “work” amazes me.

    My point is - if you’re good at what you do, you don’t have to worry about 99designs taking away your potential clients.

    Best regards.

  • on March 18th, 2010, Neville Franks said...

    This is indeed an interesting topic, one which seems to me very similar to the issue that “professional programmers” have when it comes to the rug being pulled out from under them by free open source software.

    Free OSS often attracts people in full time jobs who can sneak some development in during work hours (at there employers expense) or as a hobby at night - often for the kudos.

    I could rant and rave about this for ages, but see little point as it is unfortunately unstoppable, much like 99Designs and the like.

    I came across this (and another highly critical blog) while doing a bit of research on 99Designs because I want to get my Surfulater web site redesigned. I now need to ponder whether to use them or not.

    My interest is finding a good designer and not spending a fortune. How do I do this? Clearly 99Designs is one answer. I’d welcome any suggestions for others.

    Neville Franks

  • on April 21st, 2010, Randall said...

    If you are paying $100 for a logo you will get a $100 logo. If you pay $1000 for your logo, if done right you will have the start of your Brand! So 99designs may be cheep, but do you really want your business to be looked at as cheap? Randall Collins

  • on May 10th, 2010, Mike said...

    This is a great article and I completely agree with every point.

    The reason why certain freelancers charge so much money is because we are worth it. Our designs are high quality and we will give you a beautiful website to represent your company. Hiring a freelancer that charges very low may not produce a quality website.

    I do have to disagree with Julian as well. I am full time freelancer and I’m 17. While I admit I have used money I have earned from freelancing for some video games, I mostly put my money into a savings account for college and a new laptop eventually.

    My main concern is how similar sites are going to ruin what we do. If clients cannot realize most of the time they are not receiving quality work, then we could possibly be out of jobs.

  • on September 10th, 2010, webdev said...

    So, I have < 2k US$ and I’m making a personal Web project. I can code and do everything on a web site, except design (well I could but I suck at it).

    What can I do to have a design with that little amout of money except go to 99 designs? Would any “serious” designer design a whole website/branding/logo for this “little” amount of money (for me it’s a lot but for a business or an experienced freelancer, it’s not). They will laught at me no?

    So my point is, different situations, different clients, different workers and sure, different quality.

    Of course you COULD be lucky, but it’s still luck.

  • on September 10th, 2010, Kyle Racki said...

    Absolutely you could get a freelancer to design a site for that range, and maybe the logo too.

    And you know what? No one would have to work for free, you would get personalized service and better solutions. Everyone wins!

  • on September 23rd, 2010, Jenny said...

    Vlad is just pointing out that there is the designer that can work for less because 99designs is great for outsourcing!

    This guy, http://99designs.com/people/rodneyliber, is a web designer from the US who outsourced the following two projects:

    The winning design for “Justice for All: Saving Justice in America” a patriotic book cover, is from a designer from the Philippines:

    And where is the winning designer for the site from? Pakistan.

    @Vlad Well you can have the projects on 99desgins, I’m not doing it! Maybe $1000 US does it for you but it sure won’t get my family and me through squat. Well I’m sorry that soon maybe you won’t be able to profit off it anymore, because you’ll have to compete with good designers from other countries that can afford to make even less than you.

  • on September 23rd, 2010, moomay said...

    It’s suck, stay away from 99designs.

  • on November 07th, 2010, Anonymous said...

    Well it does suck.
    You have to spend lots of time in creating and tweaking designs till the clients finally likes it.
    If he don’t like it or changes his mind, well it’s your lost.
    I’ve seen many great designs and also many 99designs clients that doesn’t know shits.

    But right now
    I’m working on strategies to shorten work time.
    How to make more logos and very short amount of time.

    Hey if these people wants Cheap, shiny and meaningless logos for their business.
    So, why don’t we just give it all to them instead.
    Let them have it.
    if it fail, then it’s their problem anyway.

    Web 2.0 is totally bullshit 2.0

  • on November 21st, 2010, Cre8ive Commando said...

    I think you missed the main type of designer that uses these types of sites so I’ll add it for you.

    (5)The Offshore - This designer has gone to design school and does have some design skills. They live in a developing country and due to economics, small money in the western world equates to big money where they are from.

    This is the main reason outsourcing is popular with western businesses and is also why crowdsourcing sites are becoming more popular. They cater to a specific market.

    If you’re a good designer with a great portfolio and a good flow of work there is no reason to get flustered over crowdsourcing as it shouldn’t really affect you. These sites can only target the lower end of the market.

    There is always going to be new technology emerging and that’s the great thing about the web industry. It just means we need to be on our game as designers and make sure we keep up! grin

  • on November 22nd, 2010, webdev said...

    If you have 100$ budget for a logo, what choice do you have?

  • on December 05th, 2010, web pablo said...

    There is a new Freelance site http://2contests.com which is similar to most freelance sites. It is relatively new so prices are still low.

  • on December 08th, 2010, just that guy said...

    well, out of millions of websites and everyone being a designer ... do you actually think there is anything original out there !?

    i’m just a guy who knows stuff but ... funny thing, i’ve been doing it for several years now and i’ve even got the job and projects ( some of them fairly big ) to prove it.

    and in all these years i never came up with anything original.

    designers actually think you are creating original stuff.

    i go about dozens of portfolio sites of top notch designers out there - the guys that charge somewhere in the 5 zeros per project ... and i see the same old stuff in their portfolio as i see everywhere else.

    there is only so much one can do on 1000*1000px.

    we’ve reached a dead end creativity-wise.

    besides that, as someone already said ... living in a country where the minimum wage is around $200, 2-3 projects per month from crowdsourcing for 20-30 hours of extra work is very good.$1500-$2000 per month plus my base salary is very good.

  • on December 08th, 2010, just that guy said...

    i mean common .. i don’t want to be mean or rude here but looking at your own website I can name at least 5 sites that share the same structure, design elements, etc.

    it’s just not possible to create anything original anymore because the simple fact is there is so much stuff out there . the numbers are mind boilling .

  • on December 08th, 2010, Kyle Racki said...

    @justthatguy - wow, your views are depressing! So, there’s no creativity or originality left in the world. That means let’s stop making films, writing plays, recording music, building architecture, or painting pictures - because they won’t be original, so why bother.

    What a narrow, shallow viewpoint.

    Those designs, even if they look “done” to you, are probably appropriate for their audience, which is more important that being “mind-blowing” to the average viewer.

    And by the way, this site may not look great to you, but it gets us lots of positive comments from prospective clients, who often become our clients - saying how much they love our site.

  • on December 08th, 2010, jenny said...

    @justthatguy Take in mind that web design often needs to comply with the consistency of current trends. I can create an original site no problem, it would be based on my imagination which I can assure you is quite original with historical and realistic references and representations. Web designers need to take in mind what the site’s purpose is. Ease of use to attract users often falls within that category. Sites thus follow a marginal current trend ease of use factor. Neon Bible’s (beonlineb.com) design is quite original but again it serves a different purpose in its content and advertising.

  • on December 23rd, 2010, Chris said...

    Scope this. I wrote an article discussing the overarching effects of “crowdsourcing” effects and what it means. It’s unbiased but it doesn’t bode well for the commoner. Please give it a read!


  • on February 07th, 2011, Saurav Bhaduri said...

    Well I feel that the above text is good but is exaggerated. 99 designs is definitely a fantastic website for people who would like to increase their money by selling their talent. A designer working for a large company gets home and works on 99 designs with the same effort and I don’t see it wrong anywhere. As far as clients being cheated by a “not so professional” or a “teenager”, it is up to them to see the quality of design, communicate with the designer and then select a design. Good work will always be selected and bad work will always be ignored. Client gets an upper hand in this case. The only reason why someone would not like 99 designs is when they are afraid of the open competition and would rather work from the safe corner of office where he will not have to complete but deliver to a finalized client. Well client gets cheated more when they see the output after paying, in this case they pay for the output they see already. Any thoughts?

  • on December 19th, 2011, buy nandrolone said...

    Thanks in advance and good luck, headspacedesign.ca ! smile

  • on February 21st, 2012, StrawberryShitcake said...

    @Saurav Bhaduri

    Good work does not always get selected, especially if there is no counsel from a formally trained designer.

    Looking at these logos from 99d are a lot like looking at someone who was formally trained in dancing VS watching some average person dance. It’s obvious. 

    Churning out crappy design work in the hopes of winning the contest????...stupid, stupid, stupid.

  • on May 08th, 2012, 3rd World Designers Ain't All Dumb said...

    @Saurav Bhaduri: Fantastic? LOL.

    I got my 2nd winning out of 5 web design contests, 5th winning after the 18th. But, then I had it. I’m quitting 99d for good!

    First, those aren’t prospectus clients at all, obviously. Not just cheapskates, pretentious & inconsistent. They ain’t no “risk” taker at all, not a real businessman. Just wannabes start-ups/speculators.

    $100 -$400 as a business investment? Even a “3rd world’s” street fried-chicken wheel cost more than that. Today’s toys are actually with that exact price tag, though.

    Why am I quitting 99designs? It’s because I refuse the wire-frame of “3rd world designers are stupid, copycats, cheap & under achieving”, built by that kind of market. It’s just a new racist treatment.

    Besides, even if you do won sum of money there. Do you think with that 24/11 long contest & average 20% chance of winning, you really gonna have a real life with it?

    You’re going to be depressed, lonely, and lose your sexual ability, for the least.

  • on May 26th, 2012, csmith said...

    I am not a designer, I am a business owner who has run and sold several successful businesses. I use 99 Designs because I get a choice and see different ideas by talented people. Getting it for a good price is just a bonus.

    I have seen a lot of bad concepts, I have also seen a lot of great concepts from very professional and talented individuals. I have the ability to distinguish between the two.

    99 Designs has been very affective for me.

  • on May 26th, 2012, Kyle Racki said...

    @csmith and there’s no doubt that slave labor was very effective for cotton plantation owners at a certain time, but the bottom line that it’s not a sustainable business practice.

    Regardless of what you think was good or bad design, it is not the professional method that real designers go about working with a client. Just don’t confuse bargain basement prices for high quality. Do you think truly great design work out there was created in a crowdsourced contest?

    Besides, the concepts you thought were great are probably recycled and used for 100 other ‘contests’, so whatever you picked was just a numbers game for the contestant.

  • on May 26th, 2012, Kyle Racki said...

    @csmith If there are “very professional and talented individuals” on 99 designs. I feel sorry for them because obviously the economy in the country they live in cannot support them getting a paid job as a graphic designer so they have to resort to giving work away for free with the hopes of getting paid if the “client” likes what they’ve done, despite the fact that it was created with no context, no collaboration, no process or rounds of revisions and refinement.

  • on May 26th, 2012, Kyle Racki said...

    @csmith There will always be customers for cheap, low-quality work, so I don’t actually blame you for that, people like you will always exist. I just am annoyed when the so-called clients try to compare hiring a designer with using 99 designs as if the latter is better because it’s cheap and they get lots of options.

    As a customer, I would think it’s a pretty good deal to go to a restaurant that has 50 chefs competing to get paid and they have to each create me a dish, and I get to taste from the hundreds of dishes they get made, and whatever one I like best, I have to pay $5.00 for, knowing full well the chefs that ‘lost’ the competition made nothing. But as a person, I would pity the chefs, because obviously they are giving away their work day in and day out without payment because they have no other options, there is no restaurant that will pay them for their work.

  • on May 26th, 2012, Jenny said...

    I have worked for clients who have used 99 designs. I partially just need to laugh. They love the logo, “two hands wrapped around a leaf”. Do you know how many generic logos I have seen with two hands wrapped around a leaf? Umm… close to 50. I wonder how copyright laws work for that kind of thing… I guess the goals of startups are to sell the company. The logo would probably be changed in the long run.

    I drive by a manikin all the time, it has mechanical arms that move back and forth with a sign advertising a pizza place attached.  It’s begging to be violated in some perverse way,  So, they weren’t willing to pay some teenager 6 bucks instead they have this eye sore that they must think is clever.

    On second thought, the other day I saw a kid dressed in a hot dog suit, head to toe. Only his head poked out and was wrapped up by the dog… Maybe it’s best to just leave the manikin…

  • on July 12th, 2012, Accel Investor said...

    It blows my mind to find out this site has received millions of dollars from investors. I had that idea - oDesk without pay - cha ching!

  • on July 25th, 2012, ivan said...

    Not a designer myself. But people that think or would consider actually living off doing work for 99Designs are wack…its just a little money on the side right?

  • on August 02nd, 2012, Ann said...

    Pariticipation in 99Designs is voluntary.  Why are people who don’t want to participate so angered by it? 

    There are plenty of hack coders out on eLance or other freelance programming sites, but as a programmer, I don’t mind that. 

    As for people who run contests on 99Designs not being risk takers, are you serious?  I committed 20K of my money to start a business, of that about $1100 went to my 99designs contest.  I took a big risk, speaking of which, I need to do something constructive and listening to the negativity here is definitely not that.

  • on August 02nd, 2012, Kyle Racki said...

    Ann - it doesn’t bother me if people use 99 designs, but my original post was about someone saying that a crowdsourced contest produced the same quality as working through the design process with a skilled designer,—they are not the same thing.

    I’m glad you got to maximize you’re budget, and 99 designs is just that - a cheap option for people who can’t afford to hire a designer. It’s not a threat to real designers and design agencies, as someone once told me.

What do you think?

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